(photo: Dita Vollmond)<\/p>\n\n\n\n
5th<\/sup> March 2021<\/p>\n\n\n\n Gavin Greenaway\nis a British Emmy\u00ae<\/em> award-winning pianist, composer and\nconductor with an extensive catalogue of achievements: conducting over 100\nfeature film and television soundtracks, composing for major entertainment and\ncultural events, and producing and songwriting with chart-topping artists. His\ncareer in the music industry began at Sir George Martin\u2019s iconic Air Studios on\nOxford Street where he assisted on a variety of projects including Elvis\nCostello\u2019s seminal \u2018Shipbuilding\u2019 with the legendary Chet Baker. Following\nstudies at Trinity College of Music, he quickly established himself as an\nin-demand composer for theatre, film and television.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Commissioned to\ncompose \u2018something incredible\u2019 to accompany the nightly firework display at\nDisney World\u2019s EPCOT, Florida he created the symphonic Reflections of\nEarth <\/em>which played there every night for 20 years and went on to win\nan Emmy\u00ae Award. Greenaway contributed music to numerous movies as well as\nwriting and producing songs with Bryan Adams and Trevor Horn for DreamWorks.\nAdditional commissions followed for projects as diverse as the Lighting of\nthe Olympic Cauldron<\/em> for the Vancouver Winter Olympics, to music for the\nQueen\u2019s Diamond Jubilee Celebrations in 2012.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Known for\nhaving the \u2018best ears in the business\u2019, Greenaway has fostered long-standing\nrelationships with many of the world\u2019s eminent music creators, conducting\nscores for the likes of Hans Zimmer, James Newton Howard, John Powell, Junkie\nXL, and Daft Punk, and albums for artists including Andrea Bocelli, George\nMichael and Sir Paul McCartney. In 2006, he was engaged by Sir Paul McCartney\nto conduct the world premiere his oratorio Ecce Cor Meum <\/em>at the Royal\nAlbert Hall in London and again for the US premier at Carnegie Hall in New\nYork.<\/p>\n\n\n\n In recent years, he has been instrumental in bringing some of our best loved soundtracks to the live stage, including world premiere performances of the live-to-picture productions of Interstellar,<\/em> Independence Day <\/em>and Casino Royale<\/em>. In 2018, Greenaway was appointed Musical Director for The World of Hans Zimm<\/em>er with concerts across Europe. Gavin, who Zimmer says he trusts \u2018more than I trust myself\u2019 conducts the large symphony orchestra and presents an immersive multi-media extravaganza.<\/p>\n\n\n\n —-<\/p>\n\n\n\n The Conductor\u2019s Role in Film<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n When we spoke before you\nsaid that there are a lot of misconceptions about your role in film\u2026<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes.\nI think when people think of a conductor (especially non-professional\nmusicians) they still have this idealised view of the maestro having command\nover the orchestra. But the challenge in the studio is that a lot of what you\nwould normally be expected to bring to the orchestra has already been taken\naway from you. Firstly, no one cares about your interpretation of it, because\nthe composer is right there \u2013 they know how it should go, they\u2019ve just written\nit. Secondly, most films are now recorded to some form of click track, because\nthe tempo and cutting are heavily scored to the movie. <\/p>\n\n\n\n In\nthe very old days before that (and in fact John Williams will still do it) conductors\nwould just watch the film and conduct the music to it \u2013 amazing. They would pull\nit around to fit the picture. But that\u2019s a dying art, most people do a mock up\nusing some sort of synth\/sampler package or digital workstation \u2013 so they\u2019ve\nheard how it fits to the film already and have made a click. You can\u2019t really\nstray from that too much, so in many cases your ability to pull and push the\ntempo has been taken away from you. If a conductor of a symphony orchestra is like\nthe director, then I liken being the studio conductor of a movie to being the\nfirst assistant director \u2013 the one who has to get everyone in the right place\nat the right time, but is artistically somewhat lower in the pecking order.\nThere is a lot of art you can bring to it, but it\u2019s a different job.<\/p>\n\n\n\n So\nwhat\u2019s the purpose of the conductor? Normally in the studio you\u2019d expect the\ncomposer to conduct their own film music, so they can communicate what they to want\nto the orchestra. However, a lot of composers prefer not to conduct because the\nmost important place in the recording studio is in the control room, hearing\nwhat\u2019s actually happening. You may think the orchestra is nicely balanced in\nthe studio \u2013 I have a pretty good sense of it now, even with headphones on. But\nit\u2019s not infallible \u2013 and as a tangent \u2013 neither is your sense of pitch. When\nyou put headphones on your sense of pitch gets messed up, and the same is true for\nmusicians. They are always struggling with that. <\/p>\n\n\n\n If\nI think something can be improved I can venture my opinion \u2013 I\u2019ll find a\nway of volunteering that. I also encourage musicians to do the same to me to\nmake their parts more playable. But at a basic level: is the room warm enough?\nIs there enough space between the seats? (It\u2019s easier at the moment because with\nCovid everyone is two metres apart.) Are they comfortable? Is there a draught going\nround the back of the room? <\/p>\n\n\n\n You\nhave to remember that being a session musician is very stressful and precarious.\nIf you\u2019re playing a piece in a concert orchestra, even if it\u2019s new and super\ndifficult you\u2019ll have seen it beforehand and practiced it by yourself. Even if\nthe rehearsal doesn\u2019t go very well, you can go away and work at it. In the\nstudio, you see it for the first time and fifteen minutes later you record the\nfinal version. It\u2019s stressful. So if someone is strutting around on the podium\ngiving it the big \u2018I am\u2019 and pointing out what you\u2019re playing wrong, it doesn\u2019t\nhelp. There\u2019s a huge element of psychology involved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n A good atmosphere is really important, so I\nkeep it moving along. Perhaps drop in a joke here and there, but not lots and\nnot too much talking from me. Once in a while if I feel the atmosphere\u2019s got a\nbit tense and we need to puncture it a bit, I\u2019ll do that. If I feel the\ncomposer is pushing us on too fast and people aren\u2019t happy, or there are too\nmany wrong notes or sloppy playing which may reflect on the orchestra, I\u2019ll\nslow it down and say that we really must do that again. I\u2019ll step in to protect\nthe orchestra. It\u2019s a dangerous game to play because you want to get the work\nfinished, but you also want the product to be good. <\/p>\n\n\n\n During\nthe first run through I\u2019ll be watching the musicians. Obviously there\u2019ll be\nwrong notes or things that are missed but I won\u2019t say anything. I might look\nover at someone and I\u2019ll get a nod as if to say \u2018I\u2019ll get it next time\u2019. If\nthree times round there\u2019s still a problem, I might check a part but I won\u2019t say\n\u2018you\u2019re playing a wrong note in bar 7\u2019. I\u2019ll say, \u2018can I just check you have\nyou have a concert A on the second beat?\u2019 If the answer is \u2018yes\u2019, you can\nguarantee next time that\u2019s what they\u2019ll play as they\u2019ve just misread it. If it\u2019s\n\u2018no\u2019 you realise that there was a copying mistake so no one gets hurt. Part of\nmy job is to protect the musicians from the process.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The\ncomposer is putting out all sorts of fires with the director. On this side of\nthe glass, you don\u2019t want to say \u2018oboist you\u2019re playing flat today. What\u2019s\ngoing on?\u2019 because immediately everyone assumes the oboist isn\u2019t up to it. You\nneed to protect them to get them to do the best that they can under the\nconditions. I know if the musicians I work with regularly are having a tough\ntime, I can sense it. You deflect the spotlight from <\/em>them, you don\u2019t point it at them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\nalso want to create a self-empowering atmosphere. The best conductors don\u2019t\ndirect the orchestra or impose their interpretation, they encourage them to play\nat their best and bring everyone together. In that spirit \u2013 if there\u2019s a better\nway of bowing a part or a rhythm that can be slightly changed to make it more\nplayable, I want them to feel free to suggest that. Then I will decide how to\napproach the composer and negotiate that for them. That way, it ceases to be\nall of my responsibility, which makes it a hell of a lot easier! I\u2019ve got forty\nor fifty musicians with a minimum of twenty years of experience. That\u2019s a\nthousand years of musical experience in front of me. Why not use that? Let them\nsolve all sorts of problems\u2026. <\/p>\n\n\n\n In\nsessions with musicians I know well, we know the things we can fix without\nmaking a big song and dance about it. It\u2019s not going to make any huge difference\nto the overall product, sound and experience but it will make the playing\nbetter. We don\u2019t want to be bothering the composer with every single little\nchange. The music is secondary to the film \u2013 film music is an applied art. So,\ndoes it work with the film? Whether it\u2019s musically correct is another matter. Sometimes\non its own the music sounds like it has lost all its oomph and feels a bit\nweak, but when you put it to the picture it does the job perfectly. That\u2019s what\nthe composer and the director are doing in recording sessions: they\u2019re worrying\nabout how it tells the story to the picture. With concert works you\u2019re reacting\nmore to the auditorium, audience, the feel on the night, and things that can\nonly happen in the moment. <\/p>\n\n\n\n The composers you have\nthe closest working relationships with are Hans Zimmer and John Powell. Is\nthere usually a set formula for how you collaborate with them? <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well,\nit depends on the project. The big thing about being a studio conductor is\nflexibility, you have to be able to change the way you work immediately. Hans Zimmer\nlikes to work in what we call \u2018stems\u2019, that means recording each layer\nseparately. Often, if there\u2019s an ostinato part that he wants mixed differently (or\nhave different effects and levels) we might record that as a separate stem, and\nwe\u2019ll certainly record the brass instruments separately too. Even within that\nwe might record the horns as a separate stem, and it becomes like a jigsaw to\npiece together. So then it becomes about organisational skills, and accepting\nthat you\u2019re not creating pure music, but a soundscape for the film. That\u2019s the\nway Hans likes to work. <\/p>\n\n\n\n A\nlot of scores I\u2019ve done with John Powell have been like that, but in the more\nrecent ones we\u2019ve actually recorded the whole orchestra in one go, which is old\nschool. But that has its own problems when you\u2019re working with picture: making\nthings fit the picture, getting all the balances right, telling the story in\nthe right way. The brilliant thing about it is that if you are recording\neverything all at once, you can be free and ditch the click. For me that\u2019s the\nbiggest thrill in the studio \u2013 I\u2019m allowed to get closer to proper conducting. But it has still got to\nfit the overall lengths of time and the hits have to be in the same place. So\nI\u2019ll say either give me<\/em> the click and\nI\u2019ll let the orchestra follow me, or don\u2019t even give me the click and I\u2019ll\nwatch the bar counter to see if we\u2019re ahead or behind. Then I can adjust how we\nkeep on track, which is more organic in terms of the orchestral sound.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Sometimes\nHans will record the whole string section altogether \u2013 it depends on the\nproject. Composers like him are always trying to reinvent themselves. In each\nfilm he wants to create a new sound, for some that means the music is more\natmospheric and more textural \u2013 and for others it\u2019s more thematic and orchestral.\nThat\u2019s the brilliant thing about working with film composers: even when you\nthink you know exactly what they\u2019re going to do, they will surprise you with a\ntotally different way of using the orchestra. It also keeps me on my toes\nbecause I rarely see the music before we go into the studio. Everyone\u2019s sight-reading\n\u2013 it\u2019s the first performance and the recording all on the same day with no rehearsal.\nYou\u2019ll play it once, have some notes from the composer (often about dynamics or\narticulations), then play it again and then by around the third or fourth time everyone\u2019s\nusually got it pretty locked in. Then we move on to the next cue. That\u2019s it \u2013\nin the bank. You work at it piece by piece as you go. <\/p>\n\n\n\n So you have to be a very<\/em> good sight-reader.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And what\u2019s this I see on\nyour website about having \u2018the best ears in the business\u2019?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n (laughs)\nYes! I won\u2019t tell you which engineer said that but it\u2019s not a lie. But there\nare lots of people with fantastic ears in the business.<\/p>\n\n\n\n But what was he\nreferring to? What are you using your ears for?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well,\nI\u2019m one of those people who can look at a page of text and just point to the\nextra space between two words. It\u2019s an affliction! I\u2019ll look down a score and\nsee a wrong note. I can also hear a recording and know precisely where the\nwrong note is on first listen \u2013 then I\u2019ll investigate and fix it. It\u2019s the same\nwith balances and tuning. We\u2019re all on a continuum but there\u2019s a little bit of\nOCD in my behaviour that is directed at these things. It\u2019s an attention to\ndetail that is a little bit too much \u2013 for most people it\u2019s a little bit\nwearing \u2013 but it\u2019s great when you have a limited amount of time with new\nmaterial and need to get it as good as you can.<\/p>\n\n\n\n A while back, I sat in\non a recording with Vladimir Jurowski (Stravinsky\u2019s Violin Concerto with the London\nPhilharmonic Orchestra). In one section there were details he was picking out\nin the bassoon parts, concerning the exact articulation that Stravinsky had\nwritten. At first I thought he was splitting hairs, but all of a sudden it took\non a whole new character. It was just this little line shimmying along beneath\nthe violin, but he had that forensic attention to detail.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n That\u2019s\ninteresting. What makes a good musical performance? You can argue about all\nsorts of esoteric or spiritual matters, but ultimately it becomes down to that\nprecise organisation of the material in front of you. All those little details\nadd up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Do you think that you\nsometimes get to know the music better than the composers do? <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well\nfunnily enough the hardest things I find to conduct are pieces that I\u2019ve\nwritten or orchestrated myself. It\u2019s bizarre, I can\u2019t say why. Perhaps you\u2019re\nnot able to stand outside it and see it properly. I always find it remarkably\ndifficult to work out what\u2019s going wrong with music I\u2019ve written, whereas I can\ntell you immediately with someone else\u2019s. Maybe that\u2019s why some composers\nprefer other people to conduct in the studio \u2013 it just gives them that\ndifferent perspective. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Recording\nfor film is a hugely collaborative process, and part of that collaboration is\nthe orchestrator. Very few composers orchestrate their own music, not because\nthey can\u2019t, but because there simply isn\u2019t time. So often in the studio there\nwill be one of the orchestrators (often one orchestrator can\u2019t do a whole film\nif there isn\u2019t time). The turn around for the orchestration of a whole film can\nbe something like two weeks.<\/p>\n\n\n\n !!<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n That\u2019s a whole other topic! If the orchestrator is not conducting, they will also add to the discussion and point out any issues. Either the composer will say \u2018no, that\u2019s exactly what I want\u2019, which is useful to know (because you don\u2019t want to correct things that are a matter of taste or choice) or they\u2019ll want you to fix it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The\nfirst time working with any composer is always a little bit scary. You have to hope\nthat you understand music as well as they do. There are a couple that I\u2019ve worked\nwith that are so phenomenal musically that keeping up with them is the\nchallenge. That\u2019s really fun because you\u2019re kept on your toes. Everything is\nrunning at a 100% because when the take stops you know they\u2019re going to come\nback at you with changes. They will dictate notes and changes and it will come\nout faster than you can relay it and faster than the musicians will be able to\nwrite it down. So you\u2019ve got to make sure that you catch it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When\nI give comments or changes to the orchestra I try to be as concise and clear as\npossible and speak slowly. If I\u2019m giving a new bar of notes to someone, I\u2019ll\nsay for instance \u2018there\u2019s going to be four sixteenth notes on the first beat\nand they are A B, C sharp, D. I\u2019ll repeat that\u2019 and I\u2019m really careful and\nslow. The skill level of these musicians is incredible, but there\u2019s a limit to\nhow fast you can re-write music over a printed part. They can sight-read at an\namazing level, make changes, interpret parts that have not been through a hundred\nyears of refinement, and decipher (or intuit) marks on a page that are not\nreally clear (a lot of them can be very rudimentary). <\/p>\n\n\n\n I\u2019m quite good at looking at the page and seeing how the phrase will go. I love long phrases \u2013 there is a tendency in film music to break up long themes (even when they\u2019re beautiful) into shorter phrasings. I\u2019ll always find myself saying \u2018OK why is there a gap there? It\u2019s not a one-bar phrase it\u2019s an eight-bar phrase, let\u2019s make it that\u2019. I think that is probably is more akin to what you would do in a symphonic rehearsal. But that\u2019s once everything else is in place, that\u2019s the icing on the cake. I only start to do that sort of thing when the composer has got the music to where he or she wants it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n You actually only have to get it right once in the studio. All those times where you play it wrong don\u2019t matter. It\u2019s important to feel that you can make suggestions and not be made to feel stupid if you dare to do so. No music on the page is ever perfect because notation is imperfect.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Are you ever able to\nencourage much freedom from the musicians?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes.\nAgain, the challenge is that it\u2019s quite regimented in terms of what needs to\nget done in the time allowed. You don\u2019t want to start getting too experimental\nevery time, we do tend to play safe. But every so often\u2026 the other week a\ncomposer had written a jazzy, big band style trumpet solo. It was all notated and\nsounding a little bit square. We dutifully played what was on the page once,\nand then the composer said \u2018you know Tom, just play me a solo over the music\u2019. It\nwas just brilliant. He completely let rip and all of those years of playing\njazz and big band came pouring out. We loved it. The composer said \u2018OK let\u2019s\nhave another one\u2019, and we did about three or four of these solos. They weren\u2019t\nnotes the composer had written, but he had set it out so the player knew what\nto do. <\/p>\n\n\n\n There\nare also plenty of solos where we\u2019ll often suggest not to play so in time, and just\nbe free with what\u2019s written \u2013 with solo parts you quite often have a bit more\nfreedom. Everything\u2019s been worked out ahead of time on a computer, it\u2019s been\nplayed with samples and it sounds like a good but cold, non-human orchestra. This\nmeans you can get wedded into the way that sounds and things that were intended\nto sound free are notated really strangely because of that. Sometimes it\u2019s\nbetter to just renotate them squarely and write in to play it freely. You have\nto tell the musicians \u2013 especially soloists \u2013 to put their character into it.\nIt\u2019s rare that it doesn\u2019t sound better than just playing it as written. Musicians\nwant to be able to express themselves and have so much to offer. <\/p>\n\n\n\n If\nyou\u2019re not careful it becomes too much like a factory and people disengage\nmusically. If they aren\u2019t allowed to make suggestions or play things with a\nlittle bit of life it can become what one engineer described to me as \u2018data acquisition\u2019.\nAll you\u2019re doing is collecting these sounds and they don\u2019t mean anything. Sometimes\nthe score doesn\u2019t need to do much, it is just beautiful long notes. But playing\nthose notes is an art.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Gareth Valentine[1]<\/strong><\/a> mentioned how someone he knew saw a Chinese orchestra and said that they \u2018play all the notes but none of the music\u2019. So you don\u2019t want to lose all of that musicality in search of perfect and metronomic delivery. That\u2019s a tough balancing act I imagine.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n It\nis. There a thing that all musicians do with rhythms \u2013 we typically don\u2019t play\nthem quite as they\u2019re written. When you\u2019ve got a dotted quaver followed by a\nsemiquaver repeated, oftentimes that semiquaver will be slightly late, and\nslightly shorter than a semiquaver. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh yes, that\u2019s quite a\ncommon issue. <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah\nit is. That\u2019s fine, you don\u2019t want it to sound metronomic. However, it isn\u2019t fine\nif you have to line that up with a lot of sequenced percussion \u2013 where it is\nabsolutely critical that it\u2019s dead in time. Then it actually sounds really\nexciting. It\u2019s a long way from that double dotted Handel or Baroque style (or\nin fact any classical music) where you don\u2019t play things dead in time. I always\napologise to the musicians when we have to play rhythms metronomically, but sometimes\nit\u2019s the only way it\u2019s all going to fit together. Other times it\u2019s better if\nthere is a bit of life to the rhythm, and if they play it too metronomically they\u2019ll\ncome crashing into the last beat of a phrase when I would prefer it to land\nmore gently. It\u2019s only a few milliseconds but it just starts to reassert the\nidea of music having a shape. It\u2019s a balance between getting precision when\nrequired and allowing the music to be organic. It\u2019s not necessarily technically\naccurate but it has some meaning to it, and it says something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes, it gives it style\nand character. <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes, even within a prescribed click or tempo. Often with film music you\u2019ll have tempo changes without any warning. They\u2019re actually very hard to do at the best of times, but they\u2019re even harder when you have to hit the incoming tempo dead on. But we cheat, we use the technology. We play up to the point where the tempo changes, then stop playing. Literally, just stop playing. We let the room ring out. Then we\u2019ll get eight clicks into the next section and carry on from there. <\/p>\n\n\n\n The secrets are all\ncoming out now!<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes!\nBut if you conduct a live orchestra to the film in a concert you have to play\none of these cues that was never written to be performed live in one go \u2013 without\nthe benefit of a second take! Sometimes we do that with a click, or with streamers\nand no click at all. Your tempo can be out and it\u2019s fine for a few bars but\nyou\u2019re going to pay for it at some point, when you want to hit that next sync\npoint. You\u2019ve got to have the orchestra running at your command.<\/p>\n\n\n\n How to Train Your Dragon<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n How to\nTrain Your Dragon<\/em><\/strong> has a lot<\/em> of music, doesn\u2019t it? It sounded\nlike a huge orchestra. <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Most\nanimations have a lot of music\nbut yes, it does. It was a big orchestra \u2013 over one hundred players, and a\nhundred singers. We recorded it in stems: the strings and the woodwinds\naltogether, and then the brass, and a large percussion section. <\/p>\n\n\n\n What about the male and\nfemale choruses? <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n They\nwere also recorded in separate sessions \u2013 we did two or three after we\u2019d\nrecorded the orchestra. So again, it all gets layered up. Is it 100% necessary\nto do it that way? No, but it is really useful for the filmmakers. If you\nrecorded it altogether, you would have a limited amount of control over the\nlevel of the choir. Maybe the brass or percussion would be too loud in places,\nespecially when you put it\nagainst the dialogue and the sound and effects of the film. If it\u2019s already\nmixed there\u2019s nothing you can do, but when you\u2019ve recorded it in stems\nyou can just bring that part down (even just for a couple of bars) to allow the\ndialogue to speak. <\/p>\n\n\n\n When\nyou\u2019re watching the film you don\u2019t notice all this manipulation is going on, it\njust feels great. Whereas if you go back and watch an action film from the 1960s,\nyou often hear the music as a separate discreet thing. It\u2019s almost completely\non a plane apart from the dialogue and effects. Nowadays when they do a really\ngood surround sound mix, it all becomes integrated in a way that isn\u2019t possible\nwhen you just record the orchestra in one go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It seemed that most of\nthe action scenes are quite consistent in terms of tempo, even if there\u2019s a\nchange in texture. There were occasional instances when it was more changeable\n(e.g. when Hiccup was first hiding the dragon and Astrid suspects something is\ngoing on), but seemed steady on the whole. <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n It sounds steady but it isn\u2019t. Some composers will not change tempo for an action scene, but they\u2019ll change the time signature a lot to make their tune come in at the right place. Perhaps you need a 3\/4 bar to lose a beat here, or you might add a couple of beats there. But what John does (as well as many other composers) is run along at 150bpm for 16 bars and then for a bit more excitement they\u2019ll go up just 1bpm, which will also help to fit the next bit of picture. The tempo moves around within small parameters, but it\u2019s just enough to keep it interesting. You wouldn\u2019t notice it, you think it\u2019s all the same tempo, but it\u2019s not.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It\ncan be a challenge if you\u2019re playing fast notes in a fast tempo, and then it\ngets a couple of beats a minute slower and no-one tells you. Everything is fine\nfor about a bar and a half and then suddenly you\u2019ve got out of time. It\u2019s\nreally important that scores are prepared, and more importantly they tell you\nthe little changes in tempo as well as the big ones. If it goes from 150 to 120\nyou\u2019re going to notice. But if it goes from 150 to 148, if nobody knows that\u2019s what\u2019s\nhappened, that bar will be out of time. If you know about it as a musician you can\njust relax the tempo just enough in this bar to adjust. Studio musicians who play\nto click all the time have an incredibly well developed sense of tempo. They\u2019ll\nspot a 1bpm tempo change more easily than if they were playing orchestral music\nall the time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n That\u2019s quite commonly\nsaid. I hear a lot musicians in your line of work say that purely \u2018classical\u2019 musicians\ntake a lot longer to realise if tempos have gone astray. I can imagine a lot of\nconductors I know from the opera house not gelling well with this at all. <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n No.\nYou have to think of it as a craft, not an art \u2013 I\u2019m using my musical abilities\nto perform a function. If my ego got too involved it would say \u2018this is beneath\nme. It is not in full accordance with St. Cecilia\u2019s directive on making the\nbest music possible!\u2019 That\u2019s true, but there is still fun to be had, and music\nmaking to be done, within these very narrow parameters. Sometimes I finally get\nthe chance to play off click with an orchestra. I\u2019ve made a few albums with\npeople where they want to record the orchestra, and you conduct them in the\nstudio. It\u2019s wonderful, scary and all about the music. But most of the time it\u2019s\nnot. You have to accept that you\u2019re not bringing a magical new interpretation\nof Mahler\u2019s Symphony No. 5. It\u2019s a different gig. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Sure. Are there any\nparticular scenes\/extracts from How To\nTrain Your Dragon<\/em> that were interesting to work on?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n I\nwas talking earlier about how little time composers have to compose scores, but\nwith this film John was blessed with a long lead-time and had a lot of time to\nwrite it. He was therefore able to take the themes and really work them against\neach other. He honed in on a style that is kind of Nordic (somewhere north of\nScotland). I remember when I conducted it, I would frequently have goose bumps\nfrom the music and beautiful changes of harmony. It\u2019s a real buzz when after\njust the first or second hearing the music is already affecting you. <\/p>\n\n\n\n I\ntell you the scene that really got me: the one where Hiccup and Toothless the\ndragon become friends.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh that\u2019s lovely\n\u2013 starting with the tuned percussion?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Exactly,\nyes. John had already recorded that \u2013 it\u2019s a mixture of real players,\nsamples, and has a number of layers. We added the strings on top of that and so\non, but the instant I heard it I thought that it was a classic piece. To be\ncompletely honest, I\u2019m privileged to be in the room while this is happening. You\nhave to be awed and wowed by this music that is written for a specific purpose.\nYes, perhaps it doesn\u2019t stand up to the analysis that any Beethoven Symphony\nwould, it\u2019s not rigorous in many ways. But it can still affect you, like a pop\nsong can. I can\u2019t be snobbish about music, I\u2019ve done all sorts and if it affects\nyou it\u2019s working. I was at college with John and he always used to say \u2018if\nmusic doesn\u2019t move you or make you want to move, then it\u2019s not doing its job\u2019. John\nwants to get you rhythmically or emotionally activated.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Insterstellar<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Music seems to be used\nmore sparingly in Interstellar<\/em>\u2026 <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n You\u2019ll\nbe amazed at how many hundreds of tracks there are in the score. There\u2019s a lot of\nsynth work. We had a small string section recorded in a huge space: Temple Church\nin London. There were three conductors: the brass and the woodwinds were\nrecorded in two different studios. I think the woodwind were recorded in the\nsmall studio at Air (London), and the brass was recorded at the large studio at\nAir.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Is that because the\ndifferent locations lend themselves to bringing out the best in those instrument\ngroups?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n It\nwas partly that and partly a time constraint, there was so much to do and it\nwasn\u2019t possible to get the church for all the sessions. The organ was recorded\nin the church and is a major part of that score. It\u2019s not a recording space and\nwe quite often had to stop recording because you could hear people walking\nround outside or a helicopter overhead. One day there was a thunderstorm in the\nmiddle of the session and we just had to stop because there was nothing we\ncould do. Another night fireworks went off in the city and the whole church\nbecame resonant with the most incredible sound. They actually recorded some of\nit and used it in the sound effects for the film. So in this case it was\nrecorded much more freely \u2013 the music wasn\u2019t recorded to picture. Music was\ngiven an elevated place in the film, because Christopher Nolan likes it to be a\nbig element in his storytelling. Hans wrote some of the music without even looking\nat the picture and gave it to Nolan to work with as he was shooting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Wow. So it\u2019s not always\nthe same process, chronologically.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n No.\nIt usually is but in this case Chris would quite often use the music as a sort\nof structural device for the scene rather than the other way round. This was\nmore of an organic process. I think it shows. Love it or hate it, there\u2019s\nsomething about Christopher Nolan\u2019s process that creates something more than\njust a movie. His work has definitely got an Auteur vibe to it, like Hitchcock\nor Zeferelli.<\/p>\n\n\n\n As\nyou said, there are whole sections in the film without music and other parts\nwhere it\u2019s incredibly loud. We watched it at home recently with our 5.1 system\nturned up loud and it was a really visceral experience. When we performed it at\nthe Royal Albert Hall, at the end of the Docking Scene the audience actually\nerupted in applause. It had been such an experience hearing the orchestra play\nit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Obviously,\nwe were time coded with the film and had a click track. At one point we had synchronisation\nissues because the bar count had gone. You have to be really cool in those\ncircumstances \u2013 you\u2019ve got four thousand people in front of you and it\u2019s all\nabout to go very wrong. Apparently I said (over the stage communication system)[2]<\/a>\nto the engineer \u2018err Geoff\u2026 just to let you know our bar count has gone. Could\nyou sort that out if you get a chance?\u2019 And everyone was panicking \u2018oh my God, what\u2019s going to happen?\u2019\nLuckily the next cue was just a piano cue. I knew when it was going to\ncome in and what it was going to be \u2013 it was all fine. Then the bar count\nappeared again and everyone calmed down, but when you perform live music to a\npicture \u2013 once the movie starts you can\u2019t stop. <\/p>\n\n\n\n In\na concert if a soloist doing a concerto has a memory blip, you can often pick it\nup again and people often won\u2019t even notice that something\u2019s gone awry. But\nwhen the film goes on and the piece of music doesn\u2019t come in where it ought to \u2013\nyou can\u2019t stop the film. There\u2019s no recovery. I\u2019ve had a few of those scary\nmoments where you\u2019re relying on technology and it\u2019s not behaving itself.<\/p>\n\n\n\n There are a lot of\nmoments where it\u2019s hard to hear who\u2019s playing or the origins of the sound. For\nexample, that very high pitched sound, almost like a high tuning fork, as well\nas the very low bass sound that would often be used. Where is the synth used?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Throughout.\nThe organ plays a huge part and the lowest notes you hear are from the low end\nof the organ pedals. A lot of what you think might be synth is organ \u2013 played\nby the amazing Roger Sayer. He didn\u2019t just play one part. In some parts of the\nscore there are up to ten layers of organ parts, each played separately so that\nthey could be manipulated afterwards. There\u2019s a lot of sound production involved\nin that score. Hans would use synths for weird percussion and clock type sounds\nas well as very high synthetic sounds. It\u2019s a mixture and sometimes it\u2019s hard\nto tell what\u2019s doing what.<\/p>\n\n\n\n If I think of music that depicts vast expansive\nspaces I think of something like Copland \u2013 who I spoke about with Leonard Slatkin.[3]<\/strong><\/a>\nBut you\u2019re dealing with space! Covering distances that none of us could ever\npossibly comprehend. Is that really hard to convey as the conductor?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well\nwhat we have now is the technology, and artificial reverb. You can have a\nreverb that\u2019s ten seconds long but controllable, so you can determine how much\nof it you use and when you use it. Obviously we used the church initially in\nthat score for that particular sound, but the added reverb gives a sense of\nspace and expansiveness. The multi channel sound you have in cinemas now wasn\u2019t\navailable to Copland, so he had to do it with just the notes, which is\nincredible. With modern film music it\u2019s more about textures and the\nmanipulation of those textures, sometimes to the detriment of melody and\nharmony. People on the cutting edge of film composing people like Hans Zimmer and\nTom Holkenburg (who\u2019s also heavily into synths, he did the last Mad Max<\/em> film) use a mix of the classical\norchestral approach and more pop approaches. But this hybrid of orchestra, synths\nand percussion with many textural layers gives us more possibilities than there\never were before. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Zimmer builds incredible suspense with music over fifteen minutes (between 1h52m45s and 2h07m00s in the film). The music starts when Cooper and Mann start fighting on Mann\u2019s planet and ends with the explosion. It\u2019s almost like a clock ticking, and it just builds and builds and builds. <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes.\nThe thing about recording that (from my point of view) is that you don\u2019t have\nto do it in one go. We just work in sections. We pick a 2-minute section and\nget that bit right. Boom. Then we get the next bit done. You need to make sure\nthat when you start the second section, the intensity matches the first section\nand you haven\u2019t gone too far one way or the other. You can fix it a little bit\nin mixing but you still want the timbre to be to be following on. In any case\nwhen you\u2019re recording sections, you need to be sure they join up musically and\nit makes sense (in terms of the intensity of the playing if nothing else). It\u2019s\nall a cheat really!<\/p>\n\n\n\n So the building suspense\nand making sure it works dramatically is ultimately Hans\u2019s job. <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes, the heavy lifting has been done by Hans already. He\u2019s already worked out the structure and where it needs to get to \u2013 and what he wants is some of the realism of real players. I think it\u2019s very easy to think that you\u2019re doing more than you are. The orchestrators and conductors are just polishing what is already an amazing achievement by the composer. It\u2019s teamwork and as I said, I\u2019m often just grateful to be standing there in front of incredible musicians playing amazing music. And getting paid! I mean that\u2019s amazing. But if you start to think \u2018I really did something amazing for this film\u2019? No. The composer did, and the director. It\u2019s the vision of the composer and director that has created this music and is giving you something to do! <\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, that’s very modest\nof you.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh,\nbut its true. <\/p>\n\n\n\n With Insterstellar<\/em> where there any scenes\nthat were particularly interesting or difficult?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n The\none that really sticks in my mind is when Cooper takes off from Earth for the\nfirst time in the spaceship. There\u2019s this huge Wagnerian string theme over a\npedal note. It eventually gets taken out by the sound of the rocket. When we\nfirst played that I was really undecided and I thought it sounded a bit \u2018Late Romantic\u2019.\nI couldn\u2019t believe it would work because I wasn\u2019t watching the picture at this\npoint. They kept it very secret. Sometimes we get to watch the picture and that\nmakes it much easier to match the way the musicians should be playing. Should I\nbe playing short staccatos here, or slightly longer, or is it playful? Well you\nlook at the picture and think \u2018oh I know exactly what should happen\u2019. <\/p>\n\n\n\n We\ndidn\u2019t have that on Insterstellar<\/em>. We\nwere playing this very high string music, and I wasn\u2019t sure it was enough (although\nof course I didn\u2019t say that to anyone). When you see it with the final picture it\u2019s amazing, it\u2019s got this\nincredible longing to it, and it\u2019s almost operatic. It is not what I\nwould have written for that scene but when I heard it I thought that nothing\nelse would work. That happens twice in the movie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n So do you mean it seems that\nthere is not enough music (and it doesn\u2019t have much movement) but as it\u2019s such\na huge scene it actually works perfectly in combination?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Exactly.\nThe music is moving so slowly that you think it can\u2019t be right. What Christopher\nNolan was after was something that works over this much longer arc or timescale.\nIt\u2019s more like an opera than a chamber sonata, and I think that\u2019s a very valid use\nof music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Psychology<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n When we spoke before the\ninterview you mentioned how much you\u2019ve worked on your own thoughts and\nbehaviour as a conductor. Is there anything in particular that has really paid\noff, and gives you an extra edge professionally?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well,\nbecause I have good ears I was quite arrogant to deal with when I was younger. \u2018No\nthis is wrong, this is the way it goes, that\u2019s out of tune\u2019 \u2013 that sort of\nmentality. Obviously, this doesn\u2019t win you any friends. It doesn\u2019t allow for\nthe more spiritual experience of music if everything has to be so technically\ncorrect and you\u2019re so sure of yourself. I would feel things very keenly and\nthink I was right a lot of the time \u2013 trying to appear to be more together than\nI was. <\/p>\n\n\n\n If\nyou get completely caught up in the emotion, you\u2019ve stopped doing your job, but\nyou need to allow for that side of the music and accept that you don\u2019t know or hear\neverything. You have to respect (as I said earlier) all of those many, many\nhundreds of years of collective musical experience of the musicians in front of\nyou. If I\u2019m not hearing what I think I should be hearing, it\u2019s not because\nthey\u2019re playing it wrong. It\u2019s because they don\u2019t have what they need in order to\nplay it in the way it ought to be played. <\/p>\n\n\n\n If\nthere\u2019s a wrong note \u2013 maybe their part is wrong. Maybe they\u2019ve misread it, or\nit\u2019s not in tune. But maybe they can\u2019t hear what they need to be able to hear\nfor it to be in tune. So let\u2019s just check: can you hear across the room? Are\nthe balances of the headphones right? Let me change the conditions that we\u2019re\nin. I\u2019m certain that if the conditions were correct you would play it\nperfectly. That\u2019s about having trust in the musicians in front of you. When\nyou\u2019re working with the level of people I\u2019m working with \u2013 if they can\u2019t play\nit, it\u2019s not their fault. <\/p>\n\n\n\n So\nI\u2019ve switched from saying \u2018I know what the problem is, you\u2019re doing it wrong\u2019\nto \u2018I see that there is a problem\u2019. I love solving problems, that\u2019s what\u2019s so much\nfun about studio conducting. But you don\u2019t solve it by saying \u2018listen to me I\nknow how to solve this\u2019. You need to say \u2018hmm let me think. What conditions do\nI need to change to enable this to work better? Maybe the click is too slow.\nIt\u2019s 40bpm and we\u2019ve got an intricate part. If we have two clicks per beat, it\u2019s\ngoing to be easier to play\u2019. Musicians will often suggest that eventually, but\nit\u2019s better if I have already thought of that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n If a woodwind chord is out of tune, maybe a player is not having the best day. Swap a part and suddenly you\u2019ve changed the layout of that chord in the woodwind section. They can hear each other better, fixed. Perhaps the choir are coming in after a really tricky bar, it\u2019s a 7\/8 bar and they always come in late. Why can\u2019t they do it? The first thing I do is try and give a more emphatic beat, and do three movements on 1, 3, and 5. It\u2019s still too late. Why don\u2019t they come in together? Oh I know, there\u2019s too much information coming at them. So I just give an upbeat 4 clicks before the chord, and just forget about the 7\/8. And in they come altogether the first time. They couldn\u2019t do it because I was giving them the wrong information. <\/p>\n\n\n\n You\nhave to analyse in the moment and not get caught up in the fear, the stress and\nthe ego. Being able to analyse as it\u2019s going on is a really useful skill, because\nyou can often solve problems that could have turned into a real drama with egos\nbeing bruised (in a professional sense). Don\u2019t single people out. Perhaps the\ncomposer has written a chord that is just never going to sound good. You don\u2019t\nsay there is a problem with this chord (depending on how well you know the\ncomposer) you suggest<\/em>, \u2018could we maybe\ntry changing this note to that note, or to this inversion, or make a small change\nto the orchestration?\u2019 That\u2019s all you can do. <\/p>\n\n\n\n If\nyou do it in the right way, you don\u2019t need to have a big discussion about it\nbecause in ten seconds you\u2019re going to hear it and you can decide. If they\ndon\u2019t like it we can go back \u2013 it\u2019s a spirit of play and discovery. If there\u2019s\nan option of doing it two ways rather than have a big discussion about it, I\nlike to demonstrate that as quickly as possible to the composer. It\u2019s not a\nquestion of right or wrong. I\u2019m very keen on that sort of problem solving and\nkeeping my own God complex in check. If you\u2019re the conductor of the orchestra \u2013\npeople are looking to you to direct and solve whatever problems arise to enable\nthe best performance. It\u2019s quite easy for that to go to your head when you do\nsolve problems and get a good performance, or clutch victory out of what could have\nbeen a disaster. <\/p>\n\n\n\n I\ndid a concert once where the soloist came in a couple of beats out, and I had\nto make a split second decision: do I go with what\u2019s right or do I follow the\nperson who\u2019s going to be most exposed if it goes wrong? I thought that as the\nconductor I had to take the blame for whatever happened. I\u2019m going to make the\nsoloist look in the right \u2013 whatever was about to happen, they would not appear\nto be the problem. So I shifted the whole orchestra two beats in the space of one\nbeat \u2013 all this happened within a tenth of a second. I did a ridiculous upbeat\/downbeat,\nclearly in the wrong place, and looked at everyone around \u2013 a quick sweep\naround the room as if to say \u2018come with me now, no questions asked, and we\u2019ll\nbe fine\u2019. We did it and the soloist didn\u2019t even notice that they\u2019d skipped a\nbeat! The alternative was to stick to my guns and the soloist come unstuck. There\u2019s\nsomething you can take from that in terms of not taking the credit, but actually\nsaying \u2018if it goes wrong, it\u2019s my fault\u2019. <\/p>\n\n\n\n When\nyou\u2019re conducting, most of what you do doesn\u2019t actually help the musicians \u2013 I\nthink that\u2019s the honest thing to say. Any conductor who thinks that the\nmusicians played better all the time because of them is not being honest with\nthemselves, because you inevitably\ndo things that make it harder to play and that maybe make it your<\/em> way but don\u2019t necessarily make it\nbetter. What you\u2019re doing is managing the orchestra to create an organism that\nworks together. Sometimes you need to pay attention to some part of the\norganism that\u2019s not functioning very well. You might think it is at the expense\nof another part of the organism but it\u2019s fine because they don\u2019t need you as\nmuch as the other part does at that time. <\/p>\n\n\n\n When you start out it\u2019s formidably scary. The\nfirst time I ever stood in front of an orchestra I was 26 or 27. I\u2019d never had any\nlessons and I was conducting the London Philharmonic Orchestra for a recording\nsession for George Martin. <\/p>\n\n\n\n WHAT?!<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n I was absolutely bricking it \u2013 I was so freaked! The only thing that saved me was the fact that I had orchestrated what I was conducting and the musicians recognised that they weren\u2019t bad orchestrations. My conducting and my manner was so appalling \u2013 again, it was fear. That is not a good place to be in front of an orchestra. It\u2019s incredibly daunting, so it\u2019s not surprising we put up these barriers. But that\u2019s exactly what doesn\u2019t make good music. It definitely gets easier as you get older.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It\u2019s been extremely interesting\nto hear how you find ways to break down any walls between you (or the composer)\nand the performers when something isn\u2019t working. It sounds like you have a\nwhole arsenal of ideas that you can call upon to make sure the situation\ndoesn\u2019t escalate.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n Have\nyou ever had a conductor say to you: 80% of what I do is psychology and 20% is music?\n<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes, I have. <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n That\nis what it is. The best conductors know that. [1]<\/a> For the interview with Gareth Valentine on Chicago<\/em>, click here<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n [2]<\/a> Geoff,\nthe engineer, was at the back of the Royal Albert Hall, tens of metres away. It\nwas advantageous for him and Gavin (the conductor) to communicate during the\nperformance given the complexity of the set up. <\/p>\n\n\n\n [3]<\/a> Click here <\/a>for the interview with Leonard Slatkin on Copland\u2019s Symphony No. 3.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" (photo: Dita Vollmond) 5th March 2021 Gavin Greenaway is a British Emmy\u00ae award-winning pianist, composer and conductor with an extensive catalogue […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":1015,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"pmpro_default_level":"","jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-941","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-public","pmpro-has-access","clearfix"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/05\/Gavin-Greenaway.jpg","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p8YX8Q-fb","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/941","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=941"}],"version-history":[{"count":9,"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/941\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1200,"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/941\/revisions\/1200"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/1015"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=941"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=941"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.notesfromthepodium.co.uk\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=941"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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